1. Many of us, as you know (especially in the confessional baptist world) are in need of such an association - yet, of course, many of us are outside your geographical network. Is there, can there be, a way to labor together with at min gleaning from your resources and at best a legitimate connection (and whatever that may look like)?
2. It seems to have a form of subscription that allows for scruples only in pre-identified articles would be valuable to help curb liberalism. Does that resonate with you or have you a way to ensure that the next generation wont squander the previous?
Thank you. Thank you for pursuing the Lord. Thank you for taking time to listen to Him. Thank you for seeking to be faithful with all He has and has not given you. Grateful for your work and the the work of the other men involved in this group. Our family has been blessed. Thank you.
I love you, man… but this is not it… I have some comments below…
I’m grateful that you are not starting a denomination. But what you are doing is certainly not Presbyterian or Reformed. It’s just good ol fashioned independency.
I’m also sad to hear that you admit that 25% of the PCA is confession faithful, 50% is moderates and 25% is progressive. Notice what you are saying…. You’ve admitted that 75% of the denomination would likely not litigate against you and your church.. that’s a great majority! Also, there is no question of whether you should join the OPC or the URCNA or any other reformed denomination. You just assume that it’s pca or independency. That’s a mistake.
“We are Reformed. All member churches must subscribe to confessional standards.” But Which ones? Who decides? Who’s gonna keep those other churches confessional?
Later you say that “our member churches subscribe either to the Westminster Standards or the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith.” But these confessions are contradictory in a number of fundamental ways. Not just baptism, but definitions of the church, church authority and power, and what defines certain sins. Churches cannot realistically hold to both confessions and walk together.
“We provide resources. We create training materials, offer coaching, provide pulpit supply, and assist in assessing prospective church leaders. Our focus is especially on resources that help prepare men to start new churches or revitalize struggling existing ones.” - so you are basically going to do all the roles of a Presbytery but without authority, just loose association.
I am pretty disappointed brother, because this is the same kind of self authorizing move that started the CREC. And this kind of unwillingness to join the rest of us who are in the Presbyterian denominations in the USA and are fighting for the peace, purity, and unity of the church can only result in further drift and discouragement. We in the opc would love to discuss you considering us as you would offer so much strength and wisdom.
Please don’t go long in this state. We need you. The rest of the body needs you.
The middle does not vote with the right. Time and again, it has proven easy for manipulative progressives to steer. If the conservative right were more outspoken and willing to press its case, I think it could provide that leadership instead. But it hasn't, and it doesn't.
The PCA needs to understand that its failures have consequences. Those of us on the outside who would genuinely like to join will only do so if it meaningfully deals with the problems in its own ranks. From where we stand, it has not done so in a satisfactory way.
We are not going to place ourselves under the authority of men who have defrocked ministers over being "harsh" or sending "mean tweets." That is simply not a credible standard of discipline.
Our three churches already exist as independent congregations. Joining together with other independent churches to strengthen accountability may not satisfy those who treat the idea of a continuing church as something approaching apostolic succession, but it will be good for our pastors and for our people. And if that disappoints you, I'm okay with that.
As for the concern about dual standards, that can absolutely work limitedly within an association. I would also point out that the PCA has a single constitutional standard, yet it still contains enormous ecclesiastical differences (which is mostly a negative, aka deaconness, shepherdess, women councils, elder advisors, etc).
Our plan is to build alongside men who love their local churches and are willing to say no to obvious compromise. My hope is that this will have a positive influence on the PCA, encouraging it to step up where it has fallen short. If that happens, there could be a beautiful reunion someday.
You guys have a massive authority issue that you need to get in order. Praying that you can!
We're praying that God blesses all who are leading, serving, and participating in this endeavor with wisdom, courage, and steadfastness. Onward!
Amen. 2 questions:
1. Many of us, as you know (especially in the confessional baptist world) are in need of such an association - yet, of course, many of us are outside your geographical network. Is there, can there be, a way to labor together with at min gleaning from your resources and at best a legitimate connection (and whatever that may look like)?
2. It seems to have a form of subscription that allows for scruples only in pre-identified articles would be valuable to help curb liberalism. Does that resonate with you or have you a way to ensure that the next generation wont squander the previous?
1. Not at this time.
2. We just started. So we'll get to next gen issues after we deal with this gen issues.
Thank you. Thank you for pursuing the Lord. Thank you for taking time to listen to Him. Thank you for seeking to be faithful with all He has and has not given you. Grateful for your work and the the work of the other men involved in this group. Our family has been blessed. Thank you.
I love you, man… but this is not it… I have some comments below…
I’m grateful that you are not starting a denomination. But what you are doing is certainly not Presbyterian or Reformed. It’s just good ol fashioned independency.
I’m also sad to hear that you admit that 25% of the PCA is confession faithful, 50% is moderates and 25% is progressive. Notice what you are saying…. You’ve admitted that 75% of the denomination would likely not litigate against you and your church.. that’s a great majority! Also, there is no question of whether you should join the OPC or the URCNA or any other reformed denomination. You just assume that it’s pca or independency. That’s a mistake.
“We are Reformed. All member churches must subscribe to confessional standards.” But Which ones? Who decides? Who’s gonna keep those other churches confessional?
Later you say that “our member churches subscribe either to the Westminster Standards or the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith.” But these confessions are contradictory in a number of fundamental ways. Not just baptism, but definitions of the church, church authority and power, and what defines certain sins. Churches cannot realistically hold to both confessions and walk together.
“We provide resources. We create training materials, offer coaching, provide pulpit supply, and assist in assessing prospective church leaders. Our focus is especially on resources that help prepare men to start new churches or revitalize struggling existing ones.” - so you are basically going to do all the roles of a Presbytery but without authority, just loose association.
I am pretty disappointed brother, because this is the same kind of self authorizing move that started the CREC. And this kind of unwillingness to join the rest of us who are in the Presbyterian denominations in the USA and are fighting for the peace, purity, and unity of the church can only result in further drift and discouragement. We in the opc would love to discuss you considering us as you would offer so much strength and wisdom.
Please don’t go long in this state. We need you. The rest of the body needs you.
The middle does not vote with the right. Time and again, it has proven easy for manipulative progressives to steer. If the conservative right were more outspoken and willing to press its case, I think it could provide that leadership instead. But it hasn't, and it doesn't.
The PCA needs to understand that its failures have consequences. Those of us on the outside who would genuinely like to join will only do so if it meaningfully deals with the problems in its own ranks. From where we stand, it has not done so in a satisfactory way.
We are not going to place ourselves under the authority of men who have defrocked ministers over being "harsh" or sending "mean tweets." That is simply not a credible standard of discipline.
Our three churches already exist as independent congregations. Joining together with other independent churches to strengthen accountability may not satisfy those who treat the idea of a continuing church as something approaching apostolic succession, but it will be good for our pastors and for our people. And if that disappoints you, I'm okay with that.
As for the concern about dual standards, that can absolutely work limitedly within an association. I would also point out that the PCA has a single constitutional standard, yet it still contains enormous ecclesiastical differences (which is mostly a negative, aka deaconness, shepherdess, women councils, elder advisors, etc).
Our plan is to build alongside men who love their local churches and are willing to say no to obvious compromise. My hope is that this will have a positive influence on the PCA, encouraging it to step up where it has fallen short. If that happens, there could be a beautiful reunion someday.
You guys have a massive authority issue that you need to get in order. Praying that you can!
I’m in the opc. I wish you would consider us or some of the other denominations in the meantime.